Curse

Killed u man · Mar 18, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

useful because it powers:
-bull's strike
-PR
-WE
-rush
-sprint
-flail
-body blow
-power attack
-protector's strike

there's probably other stuff i'm forgetting, but hopefully you get the idea.

Ok, but we were discussing the effects of Strenght on Primal Rage tough, so the bolded skills simply don't matter...

Yes, I agree, PR WAS better than RaO, but it still was/is overrated... I'm not comparing RaO to PR... I'm merely comparing their effects, which is IMS and IAS...

And I still stick with my previous statement, spamming +40 damage attacks skills will gain you more DPS than being able to hit more often...

If there was NO such thing as snares and KD's, I would definatly concider taking PR (the old one). But as it stands, Bull's Strike, aswell as the + damage skills, simply outways the need for IMS on top of your IAS...

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 18, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

useful because it powers:
-bull's strike
-PR
-WE
-rush
-sprint
-flail
-body blow
-power attack
-protector's strike

there's probably other stuff i'm forgetting, but hopefully you get the idea.

Oh, I thought you meant inherent attribute bonuses like ARMOR PENETRATION ON ATTACK SKILLS FUUUUCK YEAH

gunster · Mar 18, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

^ this.

As to the PR nerf....it was necessary (duh).

PR was so overpowered, everytime i played my war i felt like i was a robot pressing like 3 buttons...i mean....landing bull's was a joke....rangers felt the punishment from kiting.

I just wished the nerf made the recharge 12 instead of 15, but other than that, eh back to WE

Snow Bunny · Mar 18, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Yes, I agree, PR WAS better than RaO, but it still was/is overrated... I'm not comparing RaO to PR... I'm merely comparing their effects, which is IMS and IAS...

Seriously, stop posting. If you don't understand why PR was imbalanced, then stop posting.

IAS and IMS allow Warriors to do more damage. Way more damage than WE allows them to do.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 18, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Seriously, stop posting. If you don't understand why PR was imbalanced, then stop posting.

IAS and IMS allow Warriors to do more damage. Way more damage than WE allows them to do.

^This. 12345

Gforce · Mar 18, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Oh, I thought you meant inherent attribute bonuses like ARMOR PENETRATION ON ATTACK SKILLS FUUUUCK YEAH

On 13 strength the armor penetration will increase damage by 8 on a crit (Normal crit = 59, dchop crit = 67). I know this isn't much, but definately better then whatever you gain from beast mastery, since that comes at the cost of 3 skill slots.

snaek · Mar 18, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortalmitch

Underpowered skills aren't problematic, overpowered skills are, if you can't understand this you're retarded.

i already acknowledged this as correct. my point was referring to whether or not this should lead to the attitude of completely ignoring the underpowered skills for game balance--which by your post seems like it should be the attitude.

i take from your post that theres either 2 solutions for your ideal game balance:
1) nerf overpowered skills to balanced state; delete underpowered skills
2) nerf overpowered skills to underpowered state; nerf balanced skills to underpowered state?

Quote:

Buffing skills to make them stronger than the skills that are currently seeing play is a very bad concept to follow as it dumbs down the game and takes away from the actual player skill needed.

again, i never said to buff them stronger than the current overpowered skills. subtle changes can work, but izzy seems to like more drastic ones, i.e. nerf a skill completely or buff a skill completely. balance changes can often be hit-or-miss... drastic changes can result in more drastic consequences if its a miss. we can both agree that certain past skill buffs have broken the game, but i think we're gonna have to disagree that the concept of skill buffing if done correctly is bad for the game.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 18, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

but izzy seems to like more drastic ones, i.e. nerf a skill completely or buff a skill completely. balance changes can often be hit-or-miss... drastic changes can result in more drastic consequences if its a miss. we can both agree that certain past skill buffs have broken the game, but i think we're gonna have to disagree that the concept of skill buffing if done correctly is bad for the game.

That's why skills and balance will never change, it's a never ending cycle by the people handling it. There has never been an established line that when crossing it will lead to x and backtracking leads to y. It's pretty evident by now that it's buff x skill to stupid levels so the community is forced to use it, then a month later totally nuke the skill so it never sees play and buff the next one. If there was an attempt at making or holding a medium power level you'd have more skills to choose from in the pool and what would matter more is their secondary effect to be used in more specific situations.

snaek · Mar 18, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by echoman

It's pretty evident by now that it's buff x skill to stupid levels so the community is forced to use it, then a month later totally nuke the skill so it never sees play and buff the next one.

while i don't agree with this concept either, it does have advantages. like immortalmitch said, there are only a certain amount of "meta" skills. the way anet deals with balance is by basically adding and removing skills from the meta. this can keep it interesting over time as skills are constantly refreshed, recyled, etc, etc, but it is in no way balance on a "complete" level.

the problem with this concept, and i can see where mitch is coming from, is that player's should have more control of the meta. when anet adds a skill to the meta via a buff, they are in a way deciding and controlling the meta. and so some builds may be forced upon the players of which they do not want to play. some of which may be easier or require less skill which would be even worse.

but again buff or nerf, this concept of balancing by changing "metas" is a completely different concept than aiming for a "complete" skill balance. this is the type of balancing i was referring to earlier, which puts importance on every single skill on the game (overpowered and underpowered), not jus the "meta" skills (overpowered). of course this method also has faults, but i believe it has enough merit to not be completely ridiculed by immortalmitch.

Killed u man · Mar 18, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Seriously, stop posting. If you don't understand why PR was imbalanced, then stop posting.

IAS and IMS allow Warriors to do more damage. Way more damage than WE allows them to do.

Power Attack = 1/2 hit extra (40 damage) and prot strike = 1 extra hit...

How is 1.5 extra hits every 3 seconds worse than maybe 1 extra hit every seconds under PR?

It looks good on paper, IMS and IAS, but spamming attack skills STILL outways getting some extra hits every now and then...

Divinus Stella · Mar 18, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I'm gonna have to agree that PR was way superior to WE, i don't think Killed u man plays much PvP.

Krill · Mar 18, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It looks good on paper, IMS and IAS, but spamming attack skills STILL outways getting some extra hits every now and then...

-PR split faster even after it was nerfed to 25% IMS
-Axes rely on critical hits for DPS, you get many more crits hitting moving targets in a simultaneous IMS / IAS
-You could still run shock and d-chop with PR, build still retained all of the qualities of classic shock axe except the bonus damage from evise.
-You could run swords with PR, sun & moon is an amazing skill especially buffed with SoH and judge's. Can't run sword with WE.

Just a few reasons why PR was vastly superior to WE.

Tearz1993 · Mar 19, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It looks good on paper, IMS and IAS, but spamming attack skills STILL outways getting some extra hits every now and then...

"some extra hits every now and then" actually meant that kiting a warrior really wasn't worth the trouble. They could still hit you almost as fast as normal, except they can also land a bulls to kd you this way.

DChop/shock utility made it ridiculous.

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2009, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

-PR split faster even after it was nerfed to 25% IMS
-Axes rely on critical hits for DPS, you get many more crits hitting moving targets in a simultaneous IMS / IAS
-You could still run shock and d-chop with PR, build still retained all of the qualities of classic shock axe except the bonus damage from evise.
-You could run swords with PR, sun & moon is an amazing skill especially buffed with SoH and judge's. Can't run sword with WE.

Just a few reasons why PR was vastly superior to WE.

-Axes rely on DAMAGE for dps, everything does. A critical hit is 59 damage, whereas an average is about 20-30 damage (Don't know exact number, shoot me)
A crit is nothing more than +30 damage on your average hit.
In this view, EVERY power attack can be viewed as a critical hit. On top of the fact that U get armor penetration. (And the occasional Protecter's Strike damage)

-Offcourse you could run shock with PR, but why would you? One second you're arguing the build is so good because you auto-crit against moving foes, the next minute you're talking about knocklocking with bull's and shock?!

-Swords don't have a reliable source of DW (gash needs bleeding), axe does. Hence why axe will simply be better on a WE bar, because U only need Dismember from the Axe line... I'm not talking about swords anyways.

-SoH and Judges are good with ANY form of frontline. Yes, spamming "dual-attack" skills maximizes the effect of any + damage buffed, but whereas you could only use yours every +-6-7 seconds, I can use prot strike every 3 seconds. (Which is my extra 'second' hit)

Now it's time I can throw in some arguements:

-WE enables you to SPAM +Attack skills. The protecters strike is artificial IAS (extra hit) on spikes
-These +Attack skills are armor ignoring, unlike the auto-crits from PR.
-These +Attack skills are reliable. You'll hit the +damage, regardless on wether or not your opponent is moving, KD'ed or dead for all I care.
-It can't be shut down as easily: Whereas Signet mesmers weren't meta anymore during the past PR weeks, ANY form of damage forces the PR out of PR. (Constant backlining) Ok, he could re-use it immediatly, but EVERY second you arn't in PR, is a second you'll loose compared to WE. (Which enables you to spam Power Attack and Prot strike, without having to remove it, ever. -Can't be removed anyways, as it's a skill)
-Warrior's endurance had easy acces to Dash, which can definatly compete in mobility with PR. (Don't forget, on splits, any PR Warrior would have to cancel before engaging at combat VS caster or ranger, WE with dash didn't)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

"some extra hits every now and then" actually meant that kiting a warrior really wasn't worth the trouble. They could still hit you almost as fast as normal, except they can also land a bulls to kd you this way.

DChop/shock utility made it ridiculous.

1) So what you're saying is that by having PR, they would stop kiting, hence making the Auto-crit a useless arguement?

2) I stick by it, Bull's on a PR goes against the nature of the skill. You're arguing on how good these auto crits are against moving foes, yet you still want to prevent them from moving? (I know bull's is a good, arguable the best, warrior skill)

3) And to then have the audacity to put Shock on the same bar really goes beyond me...

moriz · Mar 19, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

ok then, let's put it this way:

PR is far more powerful (at least the old PR) than WE, IF and ONLY IF you can take advantage of the extra movement speed it gives you. since strong movement and positioning abilities are typically found in higher level gvg, PR was (and probably still is in some situations) >>>>>>> WE in higher level gvg. or at the very least, it is >>>> WE in any gvg that's in the top 600 or so.

all your arguing merely proves that you aren't one of those players. and they make you look very bad.

Still Number One · Mar 19, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

-Axes rely on DAMAGE for dps, everything does. A critical hit is 59 damage, whereas an average is about 20-30 damage (Don't know exact number, shoot me)
A crit is nothing more than +30 damage on your average hit.
In this view, EVERY power attack can be viewed as a critical hit. On top of the fact that U get armor penetration. (And the occasional Protecter's Strike damage)

-Offcourse you could run shock with PR, but why would you? One second you're arguing the build is so good because you auto-crit against moving foes, the next minute you're talking about knocklocking with bull's and shock?!

-Swords don't have a reliable source of DW (gash needs bleeding), axe does. Hence why axe will simply be better on a WE bar, because U only need Dismember from the Axe line... I'm not talking about swords anyways.

-SoH and Judges are good with ANY form of frontline. Yes, spamming "dual-attack" skills maximizes the effect of any + damage buffed, but whereas you could only use yours every +-6-7 seconds, I can use prot strike every 3 seconds. (Which is my extra 'second' hit)

Now it's time I can throw in some arguements:

-WE enables you to SPAM +Attack skills. The protecters strike is artificial IAS (extra hit) on spikes
-These +Attack skills are armor ignoring, unlike the auto-crits from PR.
-These +Attack skills are reliable. You'll hit the +damage, regardless on wether or not your opponent is moving, KD'ed or dead for all I care.
-It can't be shut down as easily: Whereas Signet mesmers weren't meta anymore during the past PR weeks, ANY form of damage forces the PR out of PR. (Constant backlining) Ok, he could re-use it immediatly, but EVERY second you arn't in PR, is a second you'll loose compared to WE. (Which enables you to spam Power Attack and Prot strike, without having to remove it, ever. -Can't be removed anyways, as it's a skill)
-Warrior's endurance had easy acces to Dash, which can definatly compete in mobility with PR. (Don't forget, on splits, any PR Warrior would have to cancel before engaging at combat VS caster or ranger, WE with dash didn't)

1) So what you're saying is that by having PR, they would stop kiting, hence making the Auto-crit a useless arguement?

2) I stick by it, Bull's on a PR goes against the nature of the skill. You're arguing on how good these auto crits are against moving foes, yet you still want to prevent them from moving? (I know bull's is a good, arguable the best, warrior skill)

3) And to then have the audacity to put Shock on the same bar really goes beyond me...

If you play warrior in GvG I am seriously sorry for your guild that has to endure how stupid and horrible you must be. If you don't, then you just further prove everyone's point on how you have no idea what you are talking about.

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

You're putting it that way, not me...

Small note to all the flames:

I can go QQ shitter-style on all of you guys if I wanted to, on how you guys can ONLY accomplish shit after all the good players have already left the scene. And even then, it's a mere joke what GvG has become. So I find all this elitist bullshit talk pretty RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hysterical, about you guys calling me a bad PvP'er and this and that. Where were you guys 3 years ago? When GW was still about skill.
Exactly, I didn't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing think so...

1) I have the feeling the you're going to be in PR 24/7. That's you running fortressway, not me being bad. I, on the other hand (when I still GvG'ed) didn't ran 6 defensive casters... I ran a real build.

2) Once again, and again: +40 damage armor ignoring attack skills > critical hits... It's laughable when U guys are talking about bringing bull's and Shock on the same bar AS primal rage (I'm going to edit this fast, because with the intelectual capacity of some posters here, I feel someone is going to point towards shock/axe)...

3) Ignorance is bliss...

Apok Omen · Mar 19, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Borat,

people don't run WE just because it can score more damage. They run it because it allows them to easy-mode the entire profession.

You can make hundreds of charts or powerpoints or whatever on an arguement of which skill is better, but not everyone takes those points into consideration of which build to play. As long as one bar can pump out more DPS (PR used to becuase you could keep it up as long as you weren't being linebacked and therefore score more crits and basically Bulls>Dismember>Executioners for win), people will choose it.

WE can be kept up all the time, thus fueling Power Attack+Prot Strike on recharge. PR can't due to longer recharge. That's basically it. Utility does not matter if you can simply kill your target and achieve your goal faster without it.

Also, stop saying that bulls is contradictory to PR. Any +damage KD skill on short recharge is a staple for a pressure+spike build.

P.S. I thought you left GW, just like the rest of the pathetic shitters who still post here. Why the fu(k are you still making arguements?

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Regardless of WE being easy-mode, it's still better than PR, which is nothing more than a gloryfied Frenzy...

Quote:

As long as one bar can pump out more DPS

Which is what this arguement is about.

Also, not getting lineback'ed, hitting moving foes... Spirit rift is also a good skill if only they stayed in my blue bubble, but they won't...
If you're assuming EVERY hit will hit a moving foe, you're not getting linebacked whatsoever, and you never have to cancel PR, why can't I assume that I can litterealy spam my skills on recharge, in Frenzy, simply c-spacing to whatever is closest? (Which will still gain more DPS)

Quote:

Also, stop saying that bulls is contradictory to PR. Any +damage KD skill on short recharge is a staple for a pressure+spike build.

Ok, but your VERY ARGUEMENT is about how critical hits are the shit on moving foes. Then WHY the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you saying that a KD, 3 seconds every 10 seconds, is still good on a PR bar?
I hope you realize, during those 3 seconds, there is no difference whatsoever between Frenzy and Primal Rage, aside from the fact that U don't feel strong like bear...

30% of the time, it's already a useless skill compared to WE... The other 70% of the time it's pure meh...

Quote:

P.S. I thought you left GW, just like the rest of the pathetic shitters who still post here. Why the fu(k are you still making arguements?

I lied

Apok Omen · Mar 19, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Ok, but your VERY ARGUEMENT is about how critical hits are the shit on moving foes. Then WHY the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you saying that a KD, 3 seconds every 10 seconds, is still good on a PR bar?
I hope you realize, during those 3 seconds, there is no difference whatsoever between Frenzy and Primal Rage, aside from the fact that U don't feel strong like bear...

30% of the time, it's already a useless skill compared to WE... The other 70% of the time it's pure meh...

I am just going to stop you here. Crits are the shit on moving foes, but so is KDing a kiting target and finishing it with a combo. Comboing on a moving foe is less effective because they can still give themselves a gap of time to not be hit by your attacks. Bulls is a universal skill among Warriors. Not bringing it, regardless if you have 100000000% movement speed, is ridding you of much needed utility.

30% of the time, PR is a Frenzy. 70% of the time, it's a sprint. 100% of the time, it's a kickass skill.

Percentages are fun.